prinoth vs. PB

[Canadianbombar]

Oh, and you are right about some of the KATV changes. But your comparisons re:cashflow are like comparing GM ($148 2008) and Maserati ($1.2B 2008), and saying that GM makes a better car because the company is older and makes more money

By the way, BeachTech did not acquire Kassbohrer. Kassbohrer All Terrain Vehicles went independent. BeachTech was a brand INTRODUCED by KATV. KATV may not be family owned anymore, but it has been the Kassbohrer/Pisten Bully brand since day one. And regardless of the changes you mentioned at Kassbohrer, I applaud them for maintaining consistency and brand continuity. You may not think it is important, but in business, developing and maintaining a brand is huge in terms of customer perception and relation.

If the Bomb lineage is SO much better, then why does PB have 60% of the market share???

I can see that you bleed yellow. You can have your opinion. Did you read the original question? It asked our opinions. In my opinion, regardless of your attempt to change my mind, I still think PB is a better cat, and I trust the company. That's my opinion. Yours is clear. You're not going to change mine, and likewise. Let's get some other opinions and quit the history lessons.

OK...GM vs. Maserati....I'm not even sure what the point is that you're trying to make there? My point was Bombardier himself created a company 100 times larger and 100 times more inovative in half the life span of KB himself. As for GM vs. Maserati....I'll take a vette over a maserati any day thanks. I have NEVER...EVER had a mechanical failure with a GM product that left me stranded...or even one that required a roadside repair. Maserati....something goes wrong with one of those....no one can figure out how to fix the damn thing and you're 6 months waiting on a part when you do figure out what the heck is wrong.

Beachtech DID aquire PB. If it were not for Beach tech money....PB would simply have ceased to exist in 1994 and gone the way of LMC.

KB sells more units simply because they're CHEAPER. Up to 25% cheaper in some cases....and we all know no one in this business has any money to spend.

We had 2 brand new PB's / 2 old PB's.....and 4 old BR's last year. By mid season....neither of the old PB's were serviceable....and the new ones literally took turns spilling their blood on the trail leaving 1 down every single night. Like GM...I have NEVER EVER had a Bombi leave me stranded anywhere. I've never had one spill it's blood. I've had a lot of little nuisance problems due to things being overdesigned...I'll readily admit that....but ...I do see them as the GM of the mountain...People bitch about them for reasons that are beyond my understanding as they simply just get the job done. In Canada, they are bought because you KNOW you can get a part quickly if needed (48 hours max). PB you can be left waiting for weeks.

As to the pic of your 1969 PB. A. It's a picture FROM 1970....my point was show me a 1969 or even 70's era cat still being used today and B. 1969 was not a model year as all they built in 69 were some incomplete prototypes by their own admission. http://www.pistenbully.com/fileadmin/co ... 909_en.pdf

[admin]

I'm not convinced, you're not convinced.


Moving on...

[admin]

Oh, and BeachTech wasn't introduced until 1995, a year after KATV split from the orginal Kassbohrer, FYI. The BeachTech 2000 was the counterweight to offer some balance in a summer product.

[Canadianbombar]

Oh, and BeachTech wasn't introduced until 1995, a year after KATV split from the orginal Kassbohrer, FYI. The BeachTech 2000 was the counterweight to offer some balance in a summer product.

Geländefahrzeug is the company that took over Kässbohrer, that's why it's called Kässbohrer Geländefahrzeug. They existed as a manufacturer of various goods before purchasing Kässbohrer to add to their offerings. They were developing beach tech for their own product lines at the same time they purchased Kässbohrer. I chose to state that they were Beach Tech as Geländefahrzeug is a mouth full. I believe from what I've read some of the former management of Kässbohrer also invested to become shareholders in Geländefahrzeug at the same point in time. I'm honestly quite suprised bombi didn't buy Kässbohrer when it was insolvent....they likely have laws in that country like we do in Canada which makes it more difficult for a foreign entity to come in and take over. Bombi was indeed buying other companies (rail and aerospace) in Germany at the same point in time though.

[admin]

Um, the word "Geländefahrzeug" means "All Terrain Vehicle" in German. The company is Kassbohrer All Terrain Vehicles, or Kassbohrer Geländefahrzeug. Geländefahrzeug was a Kassbohrer product line already. They split and went independent.

[Canadianbombar]

Um, the word "Geländefahrzeug" means "All Terrain Vehicle" in German. The company is Kassbohrer All Terrain Vehicles, or Kassbohrer Geländefahrzeug. Geländefahrzeug was a Kassbohrer product line already. They split and went independent.

Quote "In 1893 Karl Kässbohrer founded the Wagenfabrik Kässbohrer in Ulm. In 1922 Kässbohrer developed a trailer for goods transport, having solid rubber wheels. When Karl Kässbohrer senior died, his sons, Karl junior and Otto Kässbohrer took over the company. In 1969, Kässbohrer was Germany's biggest coach and truck trailer producer. Kässbohrer's coaches and buses were named Setra. The snow grooming vehicles were called PistenBully and 2,000 were sold between 1979 and 1989. At the end of the 1990s about 9,000 employees worked for Kässbohrer.

Starting in 1993, the company began to fall apart. The division's truck bodies, semi-trailers and trailers were sold to the competitor Kögel. In 1994 the snow groomer vehicles division was spun off to Kässbohrer Geländefahrzeug (all-terrain vehicle) GmbH, which also produces beach cleaners. In the end, Mercedes-Benz bought the bus and coach division in 1995 and the new name EvoBus was introduced. The only division which is still family owned, is Kässbohrer Transport Technik in Salzburg, Austria, where vehicle transporters are built."

This is the Wiki (shortened idiot version) of the company history. It's essentially saying what I said in an elongated version. Geländefahrzeug were their own entity prior to purchasing Kässbohrer....they built heavy off road army trucks and other military and civilian products. The shocker to me from reading this is that Kässbohrer was once called Wagenfabrik Kässbohrer ....and I think Bombardier actually bought Wagenfabrik in the 90's!

[admin]

I'm sorry, Canadianbombar, but I can't go with the Wiki page on this one. Right from the Pisten Bully history page on their own website:

"1994

The product range Geländefahrzeuge of the former Karl Kässbohrer Fahrzeugwerke GmbH is transformed into an independent enterprise.

1995

The start of the production of the BeachTech 2000 - by doing this the enterprise puts its hope on a seasonal counterweight to the winter-business PistenBully."

Geländefahrzeuge WAS part of Kassbohrer. Then it split away in 1994. I usually don't argue these things so incessantly, but that is simply how the history went!


You're well aware of how Wikipedia works, correct? Who knows who wrote that article. Source could be reliable, or not. I tend to trust the company to know its own history a little better than someone who decided to write a quick Wiki page about it.


*edit at 18:51 to add the following: I checked out the user profile for the Wikipedia member who wrote the article. Here's the German-English translation:

"My first day at Wikipedia was the 20.12.2005. My user name is 'program', but my interests are varied. I have so far contributed to auto and technology issues, dog issues and, in particular to the subject character test for dogs.

I was born in 1961 and worked in the IT field in a northern German company.
So I see from when I'm with my dog, Dogs

I also have a user page on the English Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hundehalter

.... and one at Commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hundehalter

This is a disposable email address, which I throw away the short term, when the first spam is: [1] (no, the mail address with Spam Gourmet is not a joke.)

My Sandbox (Ausprobierseite)"

Not saying that he didn't post some valid info, just saying that I think the folks at KATVPB know their history better than an IT professional who loves dogs and has a disposable email address.

[Canadianbombar]

Yes...I know wiki can be simply a load of made up crap...but it summated pretty much all we've been talking about so I would lend some credibility to that particular posting. The guy or a family member might have worked there for all we know.

I guess to recap though....PB did go insolvent in 1994....a failed business..nobody can refute that..and they would no longer exist unless outside money came in. THAT was my point, as you were stating they were rock solid and under the same ownership as day 1. You also stated that Bombi can't be trusted because it's changed hands a bunch of times and appears (TO YOU) to be a company no one wants. In reality....Bombi has never been insolvent...ever...not 5 years ago...not 15 years ago...not 50 years ago...and has only ever really changed hands once due to the parent company's hand being forced by a goverment dangling dollers in front of their nose as a reward for parting with it. Given these facts....the reality is... that over the years Bombi and Prinoth have been more stable companies and the lineages of Prinoth and Bombardier are BOTH far longer than PB's even if you give them credit going back to day 1 in 1969....never mind the fact that a mere 15 years ago they were dead in the water. Everything else is just straying from the point.

[admin]

Canadianbombar -

I am finished with this debate. You have time and again manufactured facts that suit your argument, and you continue to do so. Your facts about Kassbohrer have been incorrect, and upon further research, your facts about the Prinoth/Bomb heritage are incorrect. In fact, I received a note from someone much, much closer to the real action and information that you or I, who cleared up a lot of the questions and debate. I am satisfied to shut up and quit arguing, because I know that I am right. There is no need to belabor the issue further.

[Canadianbombar]

Canadianbombar -

I am finished with this debate. You have time and again manufactured facts that suit your argument, and you continue to do so. Your facts about Kassbohrer have been incorrect, and upon further research, your facts about the Prinoth/Bomb heritage are incorrect. In fact, I received a note from someone much, much closer to the real action and information that you or I, who cleared up a lot of the questions and debate. I am satisfied to shut up and quit arguing, because I know that I am right. There is no need to belabor the issue further.

Golly gee...I wonder why they didn't post here. I too received a note...this one from the men in black...telling me that they were coming to get me because I know too much.

I posted a link to a PB issued document which backs up every thing I said about them....and anyone in the business world in Canada (never mind the ski industry) is privy to what went down at Bombardier....It was front page news in the business section for months. I'm kind of disappointed in you...I thought you were a bright young humble fella eager to learn...but you seem to be rolling with a "I know everything" air lately ....and can't even look at something simple like this objectively due to your own biases.