5/10 Year plan

Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby troutriver on 30 Aug 2009, 22:05

I will keep this brief, I looked at CMC and others back in 94 after growing up around this stuff and decided to go another route. That is another tale. You will find anything to do with snowcats or skiing in general to be a crazy political business as you will quickly learn. For this reason education is about the last reason you might get a promotion as you gain experience. I have a four year degree and factory training, but outside the manufacturers it has not been much help.

In grooming, school isn't going to get you far, but I hope that it helps you. Sure it will help you learn some basics, but as others have said its only seat time that matters. Not just yourself. I have been at this for 15 of my 33 years and spent countless hours riding with operators all over the US and Canada as I grew up. First, I just loved to do it. Second, it taught me different ways to approach things and of course, good and bad habits.

Here is what I suggest that has worked for me. Ask around. Ski areas, PB and Prinoth, your instructors, etc. Who are good operators and what areas are they at? Go ride around, ask questions, get exposure to different cats, parks, winching, fleet grooming, AND maintenance. Don't be an ignorant operator. Learn about what makes the machines work, and how to take care of them and make them last. It will make you a better operator and gain you respect among your peers.

Surround yourself with good people at what you find to be an area that "fits" and you education and experience will hopefully get you where you want to go.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby Canadianbombar on 01 Sep 2009, 01:19

troutriver wrote:I will keep this brief, I looked at CMC and others back in 94 after growing up around this stuff and decided to go another route. That is another tale. You will find anything to do with snowcats or skiing in general to be a crazy political business as you will quickly learn. For this reason education is about the last reason you might get a promotion as you gain experience. I have a four year degree and factory training, but outside the manufacturers it has not been much help.

In grooming, school isn't going to get you far, but I hope that it helps you. Sure it will help you learn some basics, but as others have said its only seat time that matters. Not just yourself. I have been at this for 15 of my 33 years and spent countless hours riding with operators all over the US and Canada as I grew up. First, I just loved to do it. Second, it taught me different ways to approach things and of course, good and bad habits.

Here is what I suggest that has worked for me. Ask around. Ski areas, PB and Prinoth, your instructors, etc. Who are good operators and what areas are they at? Go ride around, ask questions, get exposure to different cats, parks, winching, fleet grooming, AND maintenance. Don't be an ignorant operator. Learn about what makes the machines work, and how to take care of them and make them last. It will make you a better operator and gain you respect among your peers.

Surround yourself with good people at what you find to be an area that "fits" and you education and experience will hopefully get you where you want to go.


Agree 100% with the political aspects. I honestly think mountain ops school is almost useless in getting one the job one wants in this game. I used to manage a nightclub...and if someone submitted a resume that stated they had gone to "bartending school" I thru it in the garbage as it's essentially telling me the applicant is a sucker and their drawer is going to be full of counterfit cash at the end of the night. This is also why I was hoping one could transfer to a regular 4 year program from CMC when one decides one doesn't want to take the vow of poverty to work in this business. Luckily one can. It's very much a "not what you know...but who you know" industry. To that extent.. I can't for the life of me understand why Patrick went. Patrick was an "exceptional student" as he actually already knew more in many instances than his instructors from being around the industry growing up.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby admin on 01 Sep 2009, 07:50

Canadianbombar wrote:To that extent.. I can't for the life of me understand why Patrick went. Patrick was an "exceptional student" as he actually already knew more in many instances than his instructors from being around the industry growing up.


When I met with Professor Paul Rauschke prior to entering the program, he asked me a similar question. He wanted to know why someone who had already been well-exposed to the industry would go to CMC rather than getting the 2 year head start right into the industry, or even pursuing a 4 year business degree or similar. My response was simple. I am a mountain ops guy, who wants to know everything I possibly can about running the mountain. I grew in the New England ski industry, a world that is slightly different than the Rocky Mountain ski industry. Thus, the prospect of learning from two seasoned professionals in the Rockies was encouraging. And, indeed, I learned a whole new set of concepts and skills at CMC.

And I would never claim to know more than my instructors. I certainly had a better idea of New England ski operations, but not general mountain ops. Curt Bender and Paul Rauschke are seasoned vets of the industry, both still current in the business as well. Curt has been grooming forever (what is it Curt, 30 years now???), has managed slope and trail operations, he has consulted for snowmaking installations both here in the US and abroad, he consulted during the planning of a new ski resort in Korea (Hi1 at Kangwonland), he has been very involved with SAVMI and the Colorado Snowmaking and Grooming conference for years. And that's just a little that's coming to me off the top of my head. Rauschke's been around the patrol and lift block. He has worked from the bottom to the top in both departments, has served on the NSP board, he is currently the President of the Rocky Mountain Lift Association, among other distinctions. They know the business well, no doubt about it. I learned plenty from both of them, and it was well worth the tuition.

For me, it wasn't so much about the degree or where the degree itself would take me. It was about networking and making contacts, and about how much more I could learn and apply, which all makes me a better, more well-rounded ski industry employee, and hopefully leader some day. I wouldn't trade those two years at CMC for anything, or any prestigious degree. I have made a commitment to this industry, and have resolved to learn everything I can about it. CMC was a big step in the right direction, at least for me.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby Canadianbombar on 01 Sep 2009, 13:56

Patrick Torsell wrote:
Canadianbombar wrote:To that extent.. I can't for the life of me understand why Patrick went. Patrick was an "exceptional student" as he actually already knew more in many instances than his instructors from being around the industry growing up.


When I met with Professor Paul Rauschke prior to entering the program, he asked me a similar question. He wanted to know why someone who had already been well-exposed to the industry would go to CMC rather than getting the 2 year head start right into the industry, or even pursuing a 4 year business degree or similar. My response was simple.


I think this is the most important thing you were told while you were there. If you wanted to learn about western ops...I'm sure you could have scored a job in Colorado for a couple winters. Why spend money whe you could be earning it? The first thing you touted about your instructors was "years in the business"....and when they were honest and basically told you straight up the fact that years in is what matters most...you didn't take the hint. You wanted to do it ...and enjoyed it...that's great...I'm happy for you. I'm just trying to balance out what seems to be a running theme here of "everyone should go to ops school" with the plain fact that you're just as likely to get further in this industry just being a lifty for 2 years instead (as long as you're not an idiot...but if you're an idiot....school likely won't do you much good either).
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby admin on 01 Sep 2009, 14:52

Canadianbombar wrote:I think this is the most important thing you were told while you were there. If you wanted to learn about western ops...I'm sure you could have scored a job in Colorado for a couple winters. Why spend money whe you could be earning it? The first thing you touted about your instructors was "years in the business"....and when they were honest and basically told you straight up the fact that years in is what matters most...you didn't take the hint. You wanted to do it ...and enjoyed it...that's great...I'm happy for you. I'm just trying to balance out what seems to be a running theme here of "everyone should go to ops school" with the plain fact that you're just as likely to get further in this industry just being a lifty for 2 years instead (as long as you're not an idiot...but if you're an idiot....school likely won't do you much good either).


My experience at CMC got me two years of school experience, and two years of work experience at the same time. I walked away with a much broader understanding of the industry than had I just spent two years in lift ops or slopes/trails. For example, had I spent two years just working in those departments, I wouldn't have learned how to calculate the CCC of the entire resort, and how to expand or make changes to balance capacities. I wouldn't have learned much about swash plates just by operating a cat. I wouldn't have understood the real difference between a DC SCR drive and a VFD AC drive. I wouldn't have understood the smoke and mirrors (and occasional monkeys) involved in lift electrical and electronics. Unless I decided to work in patrol, I wouldn't have become OEC certified, and I probably wouldn't know the difference between an Akja and a Cascade toboggan. The list can go on and on and on.

Mountain ops schools are certainly not for everyone. But it was right for me, and it may be right for some other folks as well. I'm not trying to give you a hard sell here, but you seem very dismissive about the potential upsides.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby Canadianbombar on 01 Sep 2009, 15:57

Patrick Torsell wrote:
Canadianbombar wrote:I think this is the most important thing you were told while you were there. If you wanted to learn about western ops...I'm sure you could have scored a job in Colorado for a couple winters. Why spend money whe you could be earning it? The first thing you touted about your instructors was "years in the business"....and when they were honest and basically told you straight up the fact that years in is what matters most...you didn't take the hint. You wanted to do it ...and enjoyed it...that's great...I'm happy for you. I'm just trying to balance out what seems to be a running theme here of "everyone should go to ops school" with the plain fact that you're just as likely to get further in this industry just being a lifty for 2 years instead (as long as you're not an idiot...but if you're an idiot....school likely won't do you much good either).




Mountain ops schools are certainly not for everyone. But it was right for me, and it may be right for some other folks as well. I'm not trying to give you a hard sell here, but you seem very dismissive about the potential upsides.


It was right for you... because you like knowing something about everything...and could afford it in cash and time terms...just like me. Some can't afford it in cash and time terms as they come from little means and need to get their foot in the door somewhere to start working up the ladder. Although ops school seems "cheap" to you and I...If you come from nothing...go to ops school...and then have to try and pay off ops school working for a mere $9-$13 an hour driving a snow cat 40 hours a week in the winter you're going to have to skip some "luxury" items like food! I think mountain ops school would be ideal for someone with a lot of money ...who likes to ski....and is interested in buying a small ski area. Is it ideal for someone who wants to operate snowcats for a living? I think not. I don't operate snowcats for a living....I do it because I like it and can afford to because I've made/make so much more money in other occupations....but am still in touch with the realties of this world for others who aren't quite so lucky.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby admin on 01 Sep 2009, 16:20

Not that I'm in the habit of discussing personal finances online, just FYI... I relied heavily on financial aid to afford CMC. And I'm paying it back just fine on my $9-13 salary. Student loans have great interest rates, and low monthly minimums.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby Canadianbombar on 01 Sep 2009, 18:23

Patrick Torsell wrote:Not that I'm in the habit of discussing personal finances online, just FYI... I relied heavily on financial aid to afford CMC. And I'm paying it back just fine on my $9-13 salary. Student loans have great interest rates, and low monthly minimums.


I'm scratching my head even more why you would go then.....just doesn't make any sense to me....or your instructor it seems....but that's us..not you. We actually already had this conversation before you even went...don't know if you remember that or not. In the end...you're you..I'm me...and I think we could argue this for 20 more pages but it wouldn't change each others mind. As one gets older...one learns to do what makes one happy. It made you happy...as long as you're not unhappy due to the debt load...all the power to ya! I'm just floating the information here that going to mountain ops school is not going to land you a job grooming (never mind anything else) any quicker than knowing the grooming managers brother in law's uncle.....for those who actually think attending a mountain Ops course is going to land them a job as VP at WB in 5 years.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby Canadianbombar on 01 Sep 2009, 18:32

Actually....further to that....If one wants to work at a large western resort...housing is a huge issue. The resort usually wants you on site...but often has very limited housing. If you have the debt load...and then go into an entry level job @ $9-11 an hour and have a payroll deduction of $125 - $300 a week for housing AFTER taxes you really won't have money for food...never mind paying off a student loan. For this reason....I think one of the best ways to get a job in this business these days is to be financially stable before you even try to get into it. If you can afford to PURCHASE on mountain lodging....the resort knows you're stable and not going anywhere...and they'll bump you along the ladder that much faster.
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Re: 5/10 Year plan

Postby tbuchholz on 07 Oct 2010, 02:12

I know that this is an older post but I would like to add my 2 cents because I am a current student at CMC. This school is a great way to get your foot in the door in my eyes... I am from the midwest and I grew up sking and boarding and my passion for the sport made me want to pursue a career in the ski industry. My brother also went to school for SAM at Gogebic Community College in upper Michigan and he loves his job at Mtn High in California. I am a second year student and have learned a lot so far. I agree with Patrick on this one that its not about the money at all (I came from a middle class family) its about the experience and learning all the aspects of Ski Ops. I understand where your comming from in why waste 2 years going to school to become a groomer. Its not just becoming a groomer its being a groomer for a couple of year and then moving your way up the ranks and when you do move up you allready have knowledge of that position because you attended a Ski Ops school. I also am the current shop hand at the college for Pual and Jason Gusaas(he took over Curts spot) and have learned a lot more about the operation of the cats and snowguns and mountain operations in general. Jason, Pual, and Curt are all great contacts and have a lot of knowledge in the industry. I aslo would like to state that it is alot easier in my opinion to land a job grooming if you have schooling as I just got hired at Vail and I know a couple other ppl that applied and never had schooling or expierence and got shot down. One of my buddies at school also applied to Vail and got a job. I am not saying that you have to go to school to get a grooming job but it is nice to put that sort of stuff on a resume to show that you actually have some knowledge before you start working. I think it also helps with your manager trusting you more and making it eaiser to move up in the industry. Thats my 2 cents
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