When someone clueless about an industry ....

[Canadianbombar]

Nakiska is in Alberta. Sounds about right..they're a Prinoth shop...but normally buy new?

[EcoGroomer]

I apologize for arriving so late to the party... but I just received the Google Alert on this forum and though that I should chime in.

First to the naysayers: You are in the minority and the fact someone would bash an idea just because it comes from Florida says alot about them. To those that are open minded and are willing to grow in knowledge, the EcoGroomer is both technically and economically feasible and is closer to market than you might think. For anyone who would like to view the list of resorts supporting this effort and get your questions answered please go to the following link:

http://www.ecogroomer.com/development/

Best Regards,
Dan Osborne
CEO - EcoGroomer

[Canadianbombar]

I have some swampland....in Florida...I could sell you? You might find it exponentially more profitable

[Canadianbombar]

What is the estimated cost for the machines?
Each snow processing unit will cost less than a traditional snow cat. The initial cost savings estimates per EcoGroomer from reduced fuel use and operator expense will be around $150,000-$225,000 per year. ROI period is projected to be 1-2 years

Where on earth are you getting these numbers?!!? They're hillarious. If the machine was to be successful beyond your wildest dreams....it would at the MOST be capable of covering twice the terrain of a regular cat...at MOST. It will however be signifigantly slower and more cumbersome and therefore the 2 x terrain coverage is pretty much the kind of pie in the sky number you and only you would be floating. In reality....once you're done going slower and fishing this thing around the mountain it's only likely going cover the same amount of terrain as one regular cat.

OK...so say it covers double the terrain...never going to happen....but say it does. It's burnt MINIMUM double the fuel of a regular cat...likely more. Therefore zero or negative efficiency in terms of fuel consumption (AKA your whole premise) is achieved at the mystical number of twice the terrain covered. Lets go back to the reality of it likely only covering the same amount as a regular cat. Congratulations. The Eco-groomer is the most innefficient snowcat ever built...BY FAR.

Operator. OK....so if you can get double the production with one op you're saving $10,000 to $25,000 a year..at the most. And that would be it. Maintenace, purchase costs, fuel consumption are all going to be linear or worse...if the machine is successful beyond my wildest dreams. All you're going to save is the cost of an op....for a machine you've got to : build a new shop to park the thing in...which will only work on a very limited amount of terrain on a typical mountain etc etc etc. Ever hear the term cat tracks? They're the narrow roads criss crossing a typical western mountain. Why are they called cat tracks? Because cats use them to get UP the mountain. This thing won't fit up them...hell...a regular cat won't fit up a lot of them with any level of none pucker comfort because they're from the 60's when cats were a few feet narrower....so yeah...now we need a new garage and to spend 100's of thousands of dollars on the mountain rebuilding cat tracks... fighting with environmentalists to do so....taking away from the character of the mountain...and on and on. You sir...are insane!!! You have not even remotely begun to think this out because you've so very clearly never done the task you're trying to revolutionize...it's as simple as that!!!

OK Mr. Know it all he says....Let' see you do better! OK..fine...I'll give you this one for free. Do you REALLY want to build an Eco groomer? Do you REALLY want to reduce emissions, smog and cut fuel consumption by half while increasing the reliability of a cat? The technology already exists!!!! Just take a freakin normal sized cat...the beast's are already too freakin big....and impliment electric drives and magnetic regeneration. It's that freakin simple. Cats go up hill...cats go down hill...electric drive on the way up...regen braking on the way down....there has never been a better scenario for hybrid regeneration. What's more...by cutting half the hydro out of a cat you cut half the chances of spraying ATF all over a national park down by 50% right of the top.. and the amount of ATF sprayed when a hose fails (main drive hoses spray 10 times as much as a impliment hose in most cases) down by 90% per year. Again...ECO! THAT is what needs to be done. Your cat however is destined to be the most UN-ECO cat ever built even if it WORKS BEYOND EVEN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS...which it WON'T...I'm absolutely convinced of it.

[Canadianbombar]

Math...I love math. I love figuring out complex problems. Today I was figuring out the surface retention of water over a massive area of varying terrain to size culverts precisely for a 100 year rain event. Great fun. Then there's simple math like 20 million gallons saved by 2020. K. So...in order to save 20 million gallons by 2020...lets say your machine somehow magically is 50% more efficient on fuel than a regular snowcat per acre covered. Given it's design....never gonna happen.....but as usual...lets say it is just for s$%t's and giggles. Let's also assume you have full roll out and maximum buy in for the 2013 season. Again...never going to happen in a MILLION years....but just for fun..lets say. That gives you 7 years to save 20 million gallons. 20,000,000/7 = 2, 857,142.86 gallons saved per year. Again..back to impossible math....we're saying your machine covers twice the terrain using only 1.5 times the fuel of a regular cat. 2 regular machines x 5 gallons per hour = 10 gallons per hour. 25% efficiency advantage = 2.5 gallons per hour. A machine at a major resort with maximum up time sees about 1000 hours per year of use. 2,857,142.86/1000 = 2857/2.5 = 1142 machines replacing 2284 regular cats. There are approximately 425 ski resorts in the US. In order to replace 2284 cats each resort would have to operate an average of 5.37 1000 hour front line cats each. They don't. The average is about 3. So....given all that pie in the sky math in your favor....even if you immediatley replaced every snow cat in the US in 2013 with a machine that worked beyond all expectations... you're only saving 10 million gallons by 2020. The Beast promised and actually delivers very similar things to what you're trying to do and is from a major manufacturer. It's been around 3 years now. Total units sold in the US? About 10. No one can afford it ad it's too big for most areas to use. I've already accused you of having never operated a snow cat. Now I would like to accuse you of having never operated a calculator.

P.S. When you're designing a revolutionary new machine..one employs a team of engineers and technical draftspeople...not a trail map artist...

[Canadianbombar]

P.P.S. Maybe if you didn't post beyond ridiculous numbers and roll out schedules and have an overall flakey "like a 12 year old selling sham wow's" presentation...more might take you seriously.

[EcoGroomer]

CanBomb,

The data was obatined from major resort operators here in the US... Mammoth, Deer Valley, Vail all run at much higher fuel use and operating hours than you have calculated. This data has been verified and is outlined here:

http://www.slideshare.net/ecogroomer/ec ... a-verified

Obviously you groom very little on your small time hills there in Nova Scotia??? This technology was designed with the assistance of and for the major resort operators here in US and EU. Clearly you suffer from a small town mentality and need to be thinking bigger and bolder if you want to start having some success in life

Cheers!

[Canadianbombar]

LOL...I've worked for and managed some of the largest operations out there.. including Vanoc for the Olympics. Apparenty you can't read in addition to operate a snow cat or calculator. I'm the guy you would actually have to sell this thing to! I wonder LOUDLY if some of the resorts you posted as being "in support" of the project actually even gave you permission to use their logos never mind "support" ("ifI tell you I like yor idea will you get out of my office"..doesn't really qualify as support BTW)....hmmmm

I said AVERAGE front line cat genius....not a cat belonging to 1 of the top 10 resorts with the longest seasons in the US....and even then thanks to down time as well as early and late season sidelining of a number of units at a major operator the average front line unit is STILL lucky to break 1000 hours at the biggest of big!. Most small 1-2 cat areas (representing more than 50% of the market for cats) are lucky to break 600 hours per unit! How do know this? I've been involved in the largest and smallest operations on both ends of the continent.....you would actually be hard pressed to find someone who actually knows more about the big picture as a result.

And your credentials are??

[Canadianbombar]

5.Key aspects

Utilizes 2 additional retractable snow processing units to triple grooming area by one cat on most trails
Intermediate and Beginner trails primarily,
not for advanced runs or deep snow events

Estimated that (60%-70%) of general grooming
can be done in Eco-Groomer (EG) mode

Total grooming cost will be reduced by as much
as 30% to 40% with EG technology

6.Snow Processing Unit (Side View)
Mogul Muncher
SPU Housing
Tracks
Snow
Tiller
Approx 54”



This keeps getting funnier and funnier. The eco-groomer tiller is 54 inches wide?!?! Yet somehow this cat is going to groom 3 times the terrain??? Buddy...you apparently don't even know how big a standard cat tiller is!!!! Attached to a regular cat these things barely allow it to cover 1.5 times the terrain!!

[EcoGroomer]

CB,

That is a side view you are referring to. In your rush to discredit the data you are overlooking the obvious. Stop being such an idiot.

BTW, my credentials are solid and I have the resources and connections to make this happen. There is no other way that I could have made it this far so quickly and received the media coverage that I have. The project is much farther along than you care to believe. http://www.linkedin.com/pub/daniel-osborne/15/476/558

You can continue to slam the concept and talk trash all you want, that is fine, but it says more about you than me. If you have an intelligent arguement I will be happy to discuss it, otherwise this will be my last post to this forum.

DO